On August, 01, 2006 9:12 AM , The Observer
from Jordan said:

How can a normal citizen read the Kingdom rules (Al Dustor)? Is it any site online that provide a document for those rules?

On August, 01, 2006 9:34 AM , Batir Wardam
from Jordan said:

Observer this is easy. You can go to www.jordan.jo and look for the section of documents (in Arabic site) and you can see almost all the laws and agreements in Jordan. We are Jordan document has a link on the home page. You can also go the the KING Abdullah website and find most of the important national documents. Good luck.

On August, 01, 2006 10:58 AM , The Observer
from Jordan said:

Thank you Batir. I will check it up.

On August, 01, 2006 2:05 PM , Jano
from Jordan said:

well, this is, if happened, will awake alot of arabs and other countries, cuz this is different than all the bla bla bla they used to say..
well done..

good job, really, show lot of effort, but let me ask you sth Batir, what's next??! i mean after firing the ambassador from Jordan!! what do you expect to happen, would you imagine Jordan to start war!? the step of firing the ambassador is good in one situation, which is declaring the war after kicking the ambassador from Jordan!! but Jordan can't declare the war and neither want, one more thing, which is Jordan won't ever stop negociations channals with israel no matter what, for the mutual interests! speechless!

On August, 01, 2006 8:17 PM , majdi_ from Jordan
from Jordan said:

'jordan'
how in hell i want to add my Jordan flag!! it's eygpt flag and i don't know how to change!! would any one help me out!

On August, 01, 2006 8:35 PM , Batir
from Jordan said:

Jordan will certainly not go to war unless attacked first. This is just a political message, a strong one to Israel that even Jordan which has the best peace conditions with Israel ahs red lines that cannot be crossed. The problem is that as both Jordan and Egypt do not send political message, Israel and its population will think they have the blessing of moderate Arab states to destroy Hizbullah. In a nutshell, this is an issue of maintaining Jordan's minimum level of dignity that will make us at least think we did something. I heared today that 14 deputees in the parliament sent a message to kick out the Israeli ambassador, only 14 where are the rest?

On August, 01, 2006 10:13 PM , Hasan
from United States said:

Man, if there is something we Arabs have learned about Israel is that "political messages" don't mean shit to them.

Wake up man. You know what a political message would be?

That of cutting all ties with Israel and US indefinitely, and halting all imports and exports to/from Israel until they return all Jordanian prisoners and then talk about what needs to be done to normalize them again. But no, we are afraid to starve, we would rather nish7ad (beg) from the US instead of a relative Arab nation. We are too proud, so we beg from someone with no pride.
But if you do this, it will put the rest of the Arab world to shame, and some will follow.

As one muslim women said about the danger of her husbands death in battle "
ذهب الا كال و بقي الرزاق
"

Trust in God and he will support us.

Let’s say the government has the balls to do this. You know what Israel’s reaction would be? They would take their ambassador back and tell us to go F#$@ our selves, then wait until we come back a week later crawling to kiss their feet so they return their ambassador back so we can have our Nescaffe and Kit-Kat. Oo malha shokolatet Tutu??

that even Jordan which has the best peace conditions with Israel ahs red lines that cannot be crossed. Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I hope you were being sarcastic. I guess our “red” line was never crossed when they took the West Bank, or when they continuously steal our share of water, or when (I’ll mention again since we seem to forget) 70% of Jordan’s population is of Palestinian decent while many of their relatives and families are still in Palestine being humiliated, raped, starved, and killed daily.

7abibi, you are singing Christmas carols to a deaf man in June.

We once had a thin red line, but all who kept the paint fresh and clean all died in 1948, and the last one of them bil Karameh. Today, this red line is no mo

On August, 01, 2006 10:15 PM , Hasan
from United States said:

Today, this red line is no more as it was left unattended, to be stepped on, spat on, peed on, and even erased completely.

"In a nutshell, this is an issue of maintaining Jordan's minimum level of dignity" Normally, when you aim to the minimum, you will only get the minimum. But when you shake hands with Israel, count your fingers afterwards.

Do not humiliate us more than we already are.

On August, 01, 2006 10:26 PM , Batir Wardam
from Jordan said:

Hasan, although you are living in the USA as the falg shows you seem to know very well how Jordan can handle the issue of "cutting all relations with Israel and aid from the USA". Ok, let me give you a small exercise: can you describe to me, in details if you were the King of Jordan how will you manage the country after cutting the relations tomorrow in face of the political, economic and military measures that can be raised by Israel and the USA? please do not insult my intelligence by counting on our brothers from Arab countries, we have seen what they done to Lebanon and Palestine thus far. I am serious, I am challenging you with this!

dear hasan, i absolutly agree with you but in such time we don't discuss relations with other countrys!! but we can do all what you said in a later stage if we stayed alive! anyway, i shall remind and re-say it again that west bank is Jordanian land and Jordan can not drop it by the constitution of Jordan!! so the red line or whatever you called Batir has been crossed long time ago! i agree also that this Job our king doing is not easy at all!! that's why we shall not ask for more than we can do -i.e. asking for the ambassador to be kicked out- we can't afford to do such a step! at least not for the sake of lebanon!!coz i remind that part of Jordan is under occupation but we try our best to forget it having the excuse of it's not really really belongs to us!!! if we searched for the problem, we will find it in our new trend for highly consuming attidude!! dude, we are ppl who need to go shopping and buying fancy cars and on model clothes designed by respective designers!! thats what brought us to this point of weakness and self-hatred!!! after this thing ends, if it ever, we shall all go through our way in living and re-set our priorities!! and fucos on those points that really matters, USA, invited the new trend of Democracy and human rights and United nation,,, and stole our minds with those fake toys,,, coz those toy -democracy,...etc- never meant anything for the USA itself,,, you can look for evidence, they are everywhere!!! can you imagine the time, money and efforts spent on those ridicules title they imported to us and we blindly started to apply them!we should have better trained our politicians how to speak and win debates against israel spokes men!! dude, they speak arabic and we surely can't speak their language not even our ambassador there- maybe!!!

all i can say now, that i wait for syria to do sth,,, as long as it has been the rebel duck! the one that owes noone nothing!! and syria is as clear as the moon in the mid of the month!!! syria will defend her country whenever it needs! and Iran also won't let her friend- syria- alone there! at least thats what they said and what i really hope!! Jordan owes many many favours for the west and to israel itself!! and can do nothing about it! remember once Olmert said sth inappropriate when he was here in Jordan in Petra this Year, and nothing, NO one comment on what he said!! we are in a very weak position! don't forget that! so if we want to show off, that's very negative,, unless we want to be "RUDE" and kick those who helped us and really gave us money their asses! i.e start the war!! then no one can say anything about Jordan,,, BUT IF WE KEPT TALKING AND EVEN KICKED THE poor ambassador out of Jordan and then nothing furthure happened our position would be ain't good!!
coz they all know what we can do- which is nothing!! BUT THE WAR!

On August, 02, 2006 12:50 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

Batir 7abibi,

"Hasan, although you are living in the USA as the falg shows you seem to know very well how Jordan can handle the issue"

I grew up in Jordan and came to the US for school and now I'm working. Our government has always "lived" in Jordan and as the point of your letter, they don't know how to deal with the situation. So what is your point???

Don't evade answering me by "challenging" me. You are the one who posted this letter here, and we are the ones that will be asking the questions, not you.

You seem to be a very confused person, going in 4 directions at the same time. As your detail goes:

"About Me: I am a Jordanian writer and researcher who supports liberal democracy and civil society. I am against Zionism, the US administration and terrorism."

Why did you remove "Secular" from there? It was here just a few days ago? Wow, how fast do your beliefs change. One day you are a "Secular Jordanian" and today you are just a "Jordanian."

Why, did you finally realize that being a secular and trying to find solutions for a Muslims nation is ridiculous? You want to enlighten a Muslim and Christian population by your secular ideas??? Do you even know what secular really means?

You ” support liberal democracy”??? Do you also know what Liberal means? I will help you : lib•er•al:- ” Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.”

What IS Jordan if not Muslim? What are we if we are not Muslims? We are not American, we are not European, we are not Asian, and we are not African.
So you still think that your Secular Liberal ideas will help Jordanians, Arabs, and Muslims? Gandhi helped Indians because he supported, believed in, and lived as an Indian. He wasn’t preaching libera

On August, 02, 2006 12:50 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

He wasn’t preaching liberalism or any western ideas foreign to his land and people. You are confused and only confusing others if you keep writing.

Our ONLY and 1st problem is that we threw away what made Muslims special in history, and what placed Arabs for the 1st time in history books. Islam is what improved us, it is what turned us into a great nation. And since we threw away our Islamic Ideals for “enlightened” western ideas of secularism, liberalism, consumerism and their version of individual freedom, we stagnated and are back to the pits of history. We are the lowest people on earth today.

Then you argue ” وفي وثيقة "كلنا الأردن" التي تشكل الإجماع الوطني على أولويات الدولة الأردنية نجد أن الأردنيين قد اتفقوا على مجموعة من الثوابت الوطنية ومنها الالتزام بالهوية العربية الإسلامية التي قام الأردن على أساسها،”

Do you even know what your wants or goals are?

Re-read my post and you will realize that my whole point was to tell you that your suggestion doesn’t and won’t work.


Batir, I do not need to think of how Jordan will run after it cuts all relations, because it is not the worst thing that could happen. There are countless millionaires and a few billionaires in Jordan, as well as many Jordanians outside who will be able to feed it if the crisis reached this far as they all have families in there. And if you think that no one will help, then we as a people do not deserve anything, and might as well just rot and die and do ourselves a favor.

” how will you manage the country after cutting the relations tomorrow in face of the political, economic and military measures that can be raised by Israel and the USA?” Are you panicking already?

A wrinkly rug needs to be stepped on and beaten to be straightened.

I’m not as pessimistic as you, these sorts of things I leave to God as he is the one who feeds us.

So back to the p

On August, 02, 2006 12:51 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

So back to the point of this letter…… HOW IS EXPELLING THE ISRELI AMBASSADOR GOING TO HELP LEBANESE AND PALESTINOIANS?? I’m asking you.

On August, 02, 2006 1:03 AM , Batir
from Jordan said:

Good, so you evaded my question by turning into personal attacks: a typical strategy that has always kept us from being democratic. I do not want to waste my readers' time and energy with answering back personal attacks but I just want to say that I am not confused because I see liberalism and democracy as a way for modernization. Being liberal and democrat does not mean you are not a muslim. Look at Turkey and Malaysia who are the most successful muslim states who opted for democracy and modernization. I hate to go personal, but I think you are the confused. If you think Islam is the only answer why do you live in an infidel society?
Expelling the Israeli ambassadie is a political act that may not stop the bombs but will reflect that the only peace process that can give Israel a feeling of "being accepted" in the region is not gonna continue. As I said this is a political act and not a military act. Now, can you invest some of your mental powers in answering my question instead of attacking me personally? And by the way, if we rot and die will you get your ass from the USA to rot and die with us?

On August, 02, 2006 3:42 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

Hahaaa, Re-read my post hunny.

I answered your question specifically so you don’t think I'm evading it because I knew that you will evade answering me by this lame and childish excuse!

I will quote my self here again incase you can't find it.

Hasan:- "Batir, I do not need to think of how Jordan will run after it cuts all relations, because it is not the worst thing that could happen. There are countless millionaires and a few billionaires in Jordan, as well as many Jordanians outside who will be able to feed it if the crisis reached this far as they all have families in there. And if you think that no one will help, then we as a people do not deserve anything, and might as well just rot and die and do ourselves a favor."

I thought a Journalist will be able to spot it between 2 paragraphs.

Now please, re-read my post and answer my questions because it's very obvious you are the one who's evassive. And a question does not need to be followed by a "?" to be considered one.

On August, 02, 2006 4:46 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

b> “I see liberalism and democracy as a way for modernization. Being liberal and democrat does not mean you are not a Muslim. Look at Turkey and Malaysia who are the most successful muslim states who opted for democracy and modernization.”</b>

Turkey is a democracy? What planet do you live on. Based on the western idea of Democracy, how come it’s constitutionally prohibited to establish a Kurdish party even though there are 15 million Kurds living there? That’s twice the population of Jordan, and you want democracy? In the 94 elections, the Kurdish Party’s offices were bombed and its members gunned down and murdered. Democracy aah? They cannot publicly speak or publish in their own language.

Turkey banned the wearing of headscarf in universities and official buildings. Liberalism and Islam mix well huh? Since the 50’s there has been 3 military coups in Turkey. They happen when the majority votes for an Islamic government. But the military keeps taking over then to hand it over again to a secular regime. What about their position on Cyprus? There inconsistency in apply the rule of law. 7abibi, the reason turkey is “Democratic” and secular because it is maintained this way by the West, just like they maintained Saddam when they liked him.

Turkey is the door to Europe. Look at the map and see the significance of Turkey’s government alliances. Notice Iran next to it along with all the central Asian Islamic nations. As long as Turkey is pro-western, they will keep it stable, and with stability comes economic growth. NOT because it’s “democratic.” Otherwise they will break it up like the Balkans “based on ethnic lines” bullshit.

Do us a favor and research before you make such big statements. But first understand Democracy before you start projecting it on every people on earth. You will find that Democracy exists for Capitalism to survive, not to improve people’s lives. Just because people vote it doesn’t me

On August, 02, 2006 4:47 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

Just because people vote it doesn’t mean they are democratic.

“Democracy” is being reduced in the US and Americans are absent minded about it, they don’t even notice. Because they don’t really understand democracy. To them, being able to demonstrate in public and write whatever they want in a newspaper is Democratic enough. But since most Americans are too lazy to demonstrate and too ignorant to read, it won’t matter to them if they have a democratic system or not as long as their economy maintains its robustness.

Bringing democracy to Jordan is like trying to treat a flu with a bandage. Lack of “Democracy” is not our problem. Go and tell a starved Jordanian in the south that you brought him democracy and he will spit in your face. Feed him 1st. Democracy won’t feed him, because greed is the cause of hunger. And greed is what America is all about, the so called “beacon” of democracy.

” but I think you are the confused. If you think Islam is the only answer why do you live in an infidel society?” If you believe in a secular lifestyle, why are you living in a Muslims society?

Wallahi ya Batir it is here away from all the sickness that I RE-DISCOVERED my faith. I don’t blame you on your views. I blame your society who has taught you to measure success by weight of gold, and height of Buildings.

Coming here was the best thing that ever happened to me, I thank God every day for pushing me in this path. I saw what this “Great and Civilized” nation is all about and I’m not impressed. In Jordan, I wanted to join the military but fate had it different for me. I always hated it and wanted to leave. But now, it’s the opposite.

” I do not want to waste my readers' time and energy with answering back personal attacks” You will see it as a personal attack if you are self-conscious. These are not attacks, but my observations on the ingredients used, and the thinking mechanism behi

On August, 02, 2006 4:48 AM , Hasan
from United States said:

These are not attacks, but my observations on the ingredients used, and the thinking mechanism behind your writings. Please take them as constructive feedback. I’m your audience, and I can’t help but see a lot of contradictory ideas coming from you. You as a writer above all people should be reading more than you write. But it seems it’s the other way around.

” xpelling the Israeli ambassadie is a political act that may not stop the bombs but will reflect that the only peace process that can give Israel a feeling of "being accepted" in the region is not gonna continue.” Ok sooo???

That is my whole point man! What is that going to do!!!!

AAAKHHH ya galbi!

On August, 02, 2006 2:23 PM , Batir
from Jordan said:

Hasan your last messages are very well phrased and rich. I am at work now and will put some naswers in few hours. Thanks for the valuable comments, this is the kind of debate I like.